Chundles
Jul 20, 08:58 AM
Is having more cores more energy efficient than having one big fat ass 24Ghz processor? Maybe thats a factor in the increasing core count.
I think you're a bit confused, 8x 3GHz cores doesn't equal 1x 24GHz processor.
I think you're a bit confused, 8x 3GHz cores doesn't equal 1x 24GHz processor.
generik
Sep 19, 06:08 AM
Why do you even visit this site? You are doing nothing but criticising Apple and their products. Please leave.
Ps. If I was Admin I would ban you :p
Apple is beyond critique! Omg! :rolleyes:
Ps. If I was Admin I would ban you :p
Apple is beyond critique! Omg! :rolleyes:
hagjohn
Sep 19, 06:02 AM
Many users have pointed to extended ship dates and delays for MacBooks as evidence of an impending update. While possible, the shipping delays may simply be due to a demand backlog which was noted (http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=1896) in Apple's Q3 2006 conference call in July. At the time Apple stated they expected to reach a supply/demand balance by the end of September (the end of Apple's current fiscal quarter).
I hope they are wrong... I doubt that the same chip will be used in both Macbook and Macbook pro's. If they have been building up supply since the release, I would think they would have enough by now.
I hope they are wrong... I doubt that the same chip will be used in both Macbook and Macbook pro's. If they have been building up supply since the release, I would think they would have enough by now.
deconai
Aug 11, 03:59 PM
Well, I had been screwed about 4x as much as a typical cell user... at least when I had the misfortune and poor sense to have a Cingular contract.
I think there are several people who have felt "screwed" by their wireless company, regardless of which company they chose to sign with. I have used Cingular from day one of my cell usage, and I have nothing but good things to say about their service. Of course, you're 4x more likely to get screwed, I guess. ;)
I think there are several people who have felt "screwed" by their wireless company, regardless of which company they chose to sign with. I have used Cingular from day one of my cell usage, and I have nothing but good things to say about their service. Of course, you're 4x more likely to get screwed, I guess. ;)
epitaphic
Sep 13, 07:59 AM
What I couldn't understand - I couldn't see it explained in the article - why is the dual core Mac Pro (i.e. with current Mac Pro with 2 cores disabled) faster in so many tests than the 4 core Mac Pro.
probably due to latency involved in distributing the load across the two processors. that's the same problem a single Clovertown would have. Only true quads wouldn't suffer from these problems (earliest seems to be Harpertown in don't know if there are any non-MCM Xeons scheduled before then)
probably due to latency involved in distributing the load across the two processors. that's the same problem a single Clovertown would have. Only true quads wouldn't suffer from these problems (earliest seems to be Harpertown in don't know if there are any non-MCM Xeons scheduled before then)
Magrathea
Apr 6, 11:23 PM
Close, but not quite right.
The Mercury Playback Engine is composed of 3 things:
1. 64 Bit Application
2. Multithreaded Application
3. Processing of some things using CUDA (an NVIDIA card)
If you don't have a CUDA based video card, you still have the Mercury Playback Engine (software) available. What you probably meant to say is that hardware acceleration for the Mercury Playback Engine is not available unless it's a CUDA card.
More info: http://blogs.adobe.com/premiereprotraining/2011/02/cuda-mercury-playback-engine-and-adobe-premiere-pro.html
Best,
Kevin
I can attest to mercury working on both my MBPs 2007 and mid 2008 (8gigs of ram) but add a fast color correction effect on AVCHD or 7D footage and you gotta render - machines grind to a halt, footage not playable at all. Transcode to Prores first and you're golden.
Of course most people will get newer quad core machines but laptop wise apple doesn't have a 1Gig CUDA card for any MBP right?
Also, I have seen tests for people with fancy Quattro 4300fx cards ($1500) NS 6 OR 8 core machines where they turn on and off the hardware acceleration and didn't see much of a difference not a 10x better / $1500 difference. Correct me if I'm wrong here.
The Mercury Playback Engine is composed of 3 things:
1. 64 Bit Application
2. Multithreaded Application
3. Processing of some things using CUDA (an NVIDIA card)
If you don't have a CUDA based video card, you still have the Mercury Playback Engine (software) available. What you probably meant to say is that hardware acceleration for the Mercury Playback Engine is not available unless it's a CUDA card.
More info: http://blogs.adobe.com/premiereprotraining/2011/02/cuda-mercury-playback-engine-and-adobe-premiere-pro.html
Best,
Kevin
I can attest to mercury working on both my MBPs 2007 and mid 2008 (8gigs of ram) but add a fast color correction effect on AVCHD or 7D footage and you gotta render - machines grind to a halt, footage not playable at all. Transcode to Prores first and you're golden.
Of course most people will get newer quad core machines but laptop wise apple doesn't have a 1Gig CUDA card for any MBP right?
Also, I have seen tests for people with fancy Quattro 4300fx cards ($1500) NS 6 OR 8 core machines where they turn on and off the hardware acceleration and didn't see much of a difference not a 10x better / $1500 difference. Correct me if I'm wrong here.
admanimal
Apr 11, 12:22 PM
For me those changes would be -
a) Check box that says "Allow app installs from unknown sources")
You might as well start shopping for a different phone now.
Personally I'm in no rush to upgrade as I still have some time on my contract. With that said, I would rather have Apple take their time and put out a quality product. Lately we've seen some issues with recent releases and it would be great if Apple could go back to making high quality products.
I have a feeling that everyone complaining about the apparent "delay" would be the same crowd who would be up in arms if Apple released an iPhone in June that wasn't a massive hardware and software upgrade with flawless production quality. This is not to say that taking longer guarantees that either of those things will be true, but if you are the type of person who has complained about them in the past, Apple taking longer should make you hopeful, not upset.
a) Check box that says "Allow app installs from unknown sources")
You might as well start shopping for a different phone now.
Personally I'm in no rush to upgrade as I still have some time on my contract. With that said, I would rather have Apple take their time and put out a quality product. Lately we've seen some issues with recent releases and it would be great if Apple could go back to making high quality products.
I have a feeling that everyone complaining about the apparent "delay" would be the same crowd who would be up in arms if Apple released an iPhone in June that wasn't a massive hardware and software upgrade with flawless production quality. This is not to say that taking longer guarantees that either of those things will be true, but if you are the type of person who has complained about them in the past, Apple taking longer should make you hopeful, not upset.
epitaphic
Aug 18, 10:55 AM
That chart speaks for NOTHING. Comparing a Mac Pro to old 2004 single core Dual G5 PowerMacs is a completely irrelevant and spurious "test"
Nah, man, you're missing the point of the chart:
http://twoholepunch.com/quad_vs_dual.gif
Thats showing that the quad core Mac Pro is essentially the same speed as dual core Mac Pro. To translate it to normal mac scenario: If apple releases a 2.66GHz Conroe iMac/Mac/whathaveyou it will be able to crunch through FCP/Photoshop/etc faster than a Mac Pro because it can use regular DDR2 and won't suffer from horrendous memory latency.
The only way a quad Woodcrest or octo Clovertown is superior is if you're doing exactly what you do: send a bunch of things to be encoded at the same time. Video editing is a small part of the professional market. People who only encode videos day in and out are an even smaller group.
Nah, man, you're missing the point of the chart:
http://twoholepunch.com/quad_vs_dual.gif
Thats showing that the quad core Mac Pro is essentially the same speed as dual core Mac Pro. To translate it to normal mac scenario: If apple releases a 2.66GHz Conroe iMac/Mac/whathaveyou it will be able to crunch through FCP/Photoshop/etc faster than a Mac Pro because it can use regular DDR2 and won't suffer from horrendous memory latency.
The only way a quad Woodcrest or octo Clovertown is superior is if you're doing exactly what you do: send a bunch of things to be encoded at the same time. Video editing is a small part of the professional market. People who only encode videos day in and out are an even smaller group.
sparks9
Sep 19, 05:16 AM
Eh what choices do you have if Apple doesn't wish to play by your needs... buy from another vendor? Let the "free market" decide? Oh wait, I forgot, for Macs there is no free market, it is basically a monopoly.
Why do you even visit this site? You are doing nothing but criticising Apple and their products. Please leave.
Ps. If I was Admin I would ban you :p
Why do you even visit this site? You are doing nothing but criticising Apple and their products. Please leave.
Ps. If I was Admin I would ban you :p
puuukeey
Aug 6, 07:42 PM
WISHES:
What os x needs to kill vista is to stop rehashing the same tired window metaphors and come up with something killer. Even if, at first, it has to fit into a new view INSIDE a window. It's been 15 years that researchers have had better and cooler ways to get around and use a computer. Spotlight is the perfect technology to slay the hierarchy metaphor but a poor poor implimentation. Even something as elementry as "bumptop" or ZUIs, but hopefully along the lines of Jeff Hans work which I'm sure we're all familiar with by now. or god forbid something original.
apple puts one tiny little gadget such as a gyroscopic sensor in a laptop and people have been going nuts writing cool software. imagine what would happen if they actually tried
Jeff Han rightfully mocks Bill AND steve (http://www.ted.com/tedtalks/tedtalksplayer.cfm?key=j_han&flashEnabled=1)
What os x needs to kill vista is to stop rehashing the same tired window metaphors and come up with something killer. Even if, at first, it has to fit into a new view INSIDE a window. It's been 15 years that researchers have had better and cooler ways to get around and use a computer. Spotlight is the perfect technology to slay the hierarchy metaphor but a poor poor implimentation. Even something as elementry as "bumptop" or ZUIs, but hopefully along the lines of Jeff Hans work which I'm sure we're all familiar with by now. or god forbid something original.
apple puts one tiny little gadget such as a gyroscopic sensor in a laptop and people have been going nuts writing cool software. imagine what would happen if they actually tried
Jeff Han rightfully mocks Bill AND steve (http://www.ted.com/tedtalks/tedtalksplayer.cfm?key=j_han&flashEnabled=1)
wschutz
Mar 26, 08:52 AM
People may not realize that Mac OS X Server will be INCLUDED with the client version of OS X Lion. This in itself was a several hundred dollar product. Not only does it make running your own server even easier for non-techies it simplifies the OS X product version choices from 2 down to 1. And licensing for that broken up into single or family pack.
How many different versions of Windows does MS sell? :p I can't even figure out the number of versions of Windows MS makes, it is at least a couple dozen while Apple provides the same equivalent functionality in only 2 (single/family pack). The overhead in managing all those different versions is mind-bongling.
And? Would like the idea of only being allowed to buy a mansion when you just need a flat?
Actually, Microsoft just does the same that Apple does, but at least Microsoft tells you... Apple sells a couple of feature every two years... Microsoft tells you... if you want three features... pay this... if you want five features... pay that...
Sorry, merging the server is not an advantage neither it is offering just one or two versions of the product (and if you think further... it is only an advantage for the manufacturer because maintenance of these products is dramatically decreased... or why do you think Apple doesn't want to allow its OS to be installed everywhere... because it would become just another Windows... excluding the profitable idea of selling it for your own products of course)
How many different versions of Windows does MS sell? :p I can't even figure out the number of versions of Windows MS makes, it is at least a couple dozen while Apple provides the same equivalent functionality in only 2 (single/family pack). The overhead in managing all those different versions is mind-bongling.
And? Would like the idea of only being allowed to buy a mansion when you just need a flat?
Actually, Microsoft just does the same that Apple does, but at least Microsoft tells you... Apple sells a couple of feature every two years... Microsoft tells you... if you want three features... pay this... if you want five features... pay that...
Sorry, merging the server is not an advantage neither it is offering just one or two versions of the product (and if you think further... it is only an advantage for the manufacturer because maintenance of these products is dramatically decreased... or why do you think Apple doesn't want to allow its OS to be installed everywhere... because it would become just another Windows... excluding the profitable idea of selling it for your own products of course)
war
Aug 25, 06:18 PM
Apple support for me has been nothing but great. This year my household has bought an intel iMac and a macbook. Being revision A I was expecting some sort of problems with them at some point and the problems did come. First I had some serious video problems on the iMac. So, I made an appt using Concierge and it was right on time. So, the genius looked at the problem and in ten mintues told me I needed to have the logic board replaced. So, I left it at the store and picked it up 2 days later. I wasn't glad that I had problems with the mac but their support was great.
Now the macbook was having the dreaded problem of turning off at random times. This one was a bit more tricky. I made my appt just as I did for the iMac and saw the genius. She had to replicate the problem of it turning off at random before she could put it into their system in order to be fixed. Thankfully it turned off within a couple of minutes so she put in the request to have the logic board replaced. However, it took 4 days this time to get it fixed. While I would have loved to have had it fixed in the same time it took to fix the iMac I realized that just wasn't in the cards. It has been fine ever since. Although, a few weeks later the battery started to buldge but they replaced it right away and we were only at the genius bar for around 15 minutes to get a new battery.
After hearing the horror story of my best friend trying to get his Dell fixed I was certainly happy about my experience with Apple. (as far as the dell story goes he still doesn't have it replaced because Dell lost his notebook after he sent it back to them and they are trying to tell him that it was somehow his fault) The people at the genius bar were excellent with good customer service skills. While I realize that some have had experiences that weren't quite as good I thought I would point out that some of our experiences with Apple support have been excellent.
Now the macbook was having the dreaded problem of turning off at random times. This one was a bit more tricky. I made my appt just as I did for the iMac and saw the genius. She had to replicate the problem of it turning off at random before she could put it into their system in order to be fixed. Thankfully it turned off within a couple of minutes so she put in the request to have the logic board replaced. However, it took 4 days this time to get it fixed. While I would have loved to have had it fixed in the same time it took to fix the iMac I realized that just wasn't in the cards. It has been fine ever since. Although, a few weeks later the battery started to buldge but they replaced it right away and we were only at the genius bar for around 15 minutes to get a new battery.
After hearing the horror story of my best friend trying to get his Dell fixed I was certainly happy about my experience with Apple. (as far as the dell story goes he still doesn't have it replaced because Dell lost his notebook after he sent it back to them and they are trying to tell him that it was somehow his fault) The people at the genius bar were excellent with good customer service skills. While I realize that some have had experiences that weren't quite as good I thought I would point out that some of our experiences with Apple support have been excellent.
emotion
Jul 20, 02:31 PM
I'm not sure either and I shouldn't have made the assumption. I know Ableton and Cubase do as I've used both and I'm now an avid Ableton user. I'd imagine Logic will take full advantage sometime soon since it's now one of Apple's pro applications. It certainly makes sense considering how bogged down your system gets once you load enough virtual instruments and effects.
I'm a Live user too. I wouldn't assume the forthcoming Live 6 supports more than two cores though.
I agree about Logic and the multi core support. They should have done this for the G5 quads though (I hear the quad owners scream :) ).
Edit: apparently Live 6 supports more than two cores/procs
I'm a Live user too. I wouldn't assume the forthcoming Live 6 supports more than two cores though.
I agree about Logic and the multi core support. They should have done this for the G5 quads though (I hear the quad owners scream :) ).
Edit: apparently Live 6 supports more than two cores/procs
vincenz
Apr 11, 11:33 AM
Looks like we'll be waiting in line in the cold instead of the heat. Can't really complain...
Steviejobz
Apr 8, 05:22 AM
This story fails the smell test. A reader told MacRumors? You mean a disgruntled fanboy who has gone iPad-less for two weeks has turned conspiracy theorist?
All I can say is that there was an inventory tracker on one of these threads and each time it said "in store only" I was able to walk into that store and buy one.
The second time I bought a unit there were guys carrying boxes of iPads that had just arrived and sold them freely until gone.
All I can say is that there was an inventory tracker on one of these threads and each time it said "in store only" I was able to walk into that store and buy one.
The second time I bought a unit there were guys carrying boxes of iPads that had just arrived and sold them freely until gone.
shelterpaw
Jul 20, 10:43 AM
We just need most software to support that efficiently now.
It certainly will help. Though most pro apps are optimized for mulit-processors. I know much of Adobe/Macromedia's line is, well I'm not sure about the macromeida products. Apples Pro apps are and most of the DAW's are optimized, like Ableton 5.2/6.0, Cubase, Logic, Pro Tools.
It will be great is to see games optimized for this, which I do believe will happen now that most OEM's will be sporting mulitiple cores in the future.
It certainly will help. Though most pro apps are optimized for mulit-processors. I know much of Adobe/Macromedia's line is, well I'm not sure about the macromeida products. Apples Pro apps are and most of the DAW's are optimized, like Ableton 5.2/6.0, Cubase, Logic, Pro Tools.
It will be great is to see games optimized for this, which I do believe will happen now that most OEM's will be sporting mulitiple cores in the future.
macgeek2005
Aug 19, 06:08 PM
I'm sure you know this. But just a reminder that you would be dealing with an extremely fragile and tricky upgrade process that could destroy your motherboard or fry the processor without the latest cooling system from Apple. Just my own caution against attempting this. Not worth the risk I think. There will be a better video card with the Dual Clovertown Mac Pro as well as other changes to the system fixing bugs discovered between now and then. Too many changes in the works for me to want to fool with such a complex system.
You make me mad you know that? All over the boards I see your posts with your weird avatar and your extremely critical opinions on everything. Why don't you wait until 2010 and get a 32 core system from intel. Why don't you wait until nobody uses computers anymore. This is just a phase in the history of the world. There will be something beyond computers in another few hundred years. Why buy a computer if it'll be obsolete at some point?
Professional users are out there using G5 towers and even G4's. They're using MacBook Pro's, which are much less powerfull than the Quad Mac Pro right now. I mean, what's your problem? Will there ever be a computer good enough for you?
There are people like you out there, but i've never met a case as extreme as you. I mean, you even went as far as to say that theres very little you can do with 4 cores. Where the **** did you pull that from? Actually, don't answer that question.
I think that you're secretly some evil worker from microsoft trying to stall people from buying Mac Pro's!
If everyone could all of a sudden comprehend exactly how powerful the current machines are, anyone who was thinking of buying one, would buy one.
But you're out here with your "Clovertown is better" and your "Bugs must be worked out" and your this and your that.
You know what? I have three Rev. A iMac Core Duo's in my house, and not a single one of them has had a bug, a crash, a freeze, or a problem of any sort. Rev. A.
HMMM. Maybe Apple does know how to do Rev. A. Just sometimes? Maybe? Perhaps?
Especially with their Quad Xeon 64 Bit Workstation which they've been working on for over a year?
Do you realise that in the procces of making these computers they work out the bugs themselves? They use the computers, and find all the bugs possible, and work them out?
What do you think all those apple workers have been doing for the last year and a half, if not working out bugs on their machines?
For anyone out there who has been needlessly influenced by this guy to wait for a system that will only be outdated by the one that will come after it, please uninfluence yourself, and buy the stupid computer that you want, when you want it.
Jeeshh!!
You make me mad you know that? All over the boards I see your posts with your weird avatar and your extremely critical opinions on everything. Why don't you wait until 2010 and get a 32 core system from intel. Why don't you wait until nobody uses computers anymore. This is just a phase in the history of the world. There will be something beyond computers in another few hundred years. Why buy a computer if it'll be obsolete at some point?
Professional users are out there using G5 towers and even G4's. They're using MacBook Pro's, which are much less powerfull than the Quad Mac Pro right now. I mean, what's your problem? Will there ever be a computer good enough for you?
There are people like you out there, but i've never met a case as extreme as you. I mean, you even went as far as to say that theres very little you can do with 4 cores. Where the **** did you pull that from? Actually, don't answer that question.
I think that you're secretly some evil worker from microsoft trying to stall people from buying Mac Pro's!
If everyone could all of a sudden comprehend exactly how powerful the current machines are, anyone who was thinking of buying one, would buy one.
But you're out here with your "Clovertown is better" and your "Bugs must be worked out" and your this and your that.
You know what? I have three Rev. A iMac Core Duo's in my house, and not a single one of them has had a bug, a crash, a freeze, or a problem of any sort. Rev. A.
HMMM. Maybe Apple does know how to do Rev. A. Just sometimes? Maybe? Perhaps?
Especially with their Quad Xeon 64 Bit Workstation which they've been working on for over a year?
Do you realise that in the procces of making these computers they work out the bugs themselves? They use the computers, and find all the bugs possible, and work them out?
What do you think all those apple workers have been doing for the last year and a half, if not working out bugs on their machines?
For anyone out there who has been needlessly influenced by this guy to wait for a system that will only be outdated by the one that will come after it, please uninfluence yourself, and buy the stupid computer that you want, when you want it.
Jeeshh!!
Cougarcat
Mar 25, 11:33 PM
I think all this is just a dumbing down of what is an amazing OS. I don't use my mac with dual displays anything like I'd use an iPad, so why put that crap in there? I just don't like the direction they are taking OSX in general, and I doubt I will upgrade from snow leopard. To me this is very sad news, the day OSX and iOS merge is the day the mac dies.
Relax. The sky is not falling. iOS and OS X rely on different user interaction. They will never be merged. Lion is not a "dumbing down." No features have been removed. You don't have to use fullscreen apps, or Launchpad, or the hidden scrollbars, or the gestures, or anything else that reminds you of iOS. Mission Control works better with Expose, IMO. The "All windows" view was way too cluttered. And normal expose for specific apps is still there.
Versions, Resume, the new Mail, MC and refinements to the interface are all awesome features that still makes Lion worth it even if you decide to avoid the more overt iOS influences.
I'm pretty susre you don't HAVE to use the new stuff. Old expose is still there for instance.
Partly true. All windows is gone, replaced by MC. The app Expose views work the same, though. Best of both worlds, IMO.
Relax. The sky is not falling. iOS and OS X rely on different user interaction. They will never be merged. Lion is not a "dumbing down." No features have been removed. You don't have to use fullscreen apps, or Launchpad, or the hidden scrollbars, or the gestures, or anything else that reminds you of iOS. Mission Control works better with Expose, IMO. The "All windows" view was way too cluttered. And normal expose for specific apps is still there.
Versions, Resume, the new Mail, MC and refinements to the interface are all awesome features that still makes Lion worth it even if you decide to avoid the more overt iOS influences.
I'm pretty susre you don't HAVE to use the new stuff. Old expose is still there for instance.
Partly true. All windows is gone, replaced by MC. The app Expose views work the same, though. Best of both worlds, IMO.
~Shard~
Jul 14, 02:37 PM
To charge $1800 for a system that only has 512MB is a real disappoitment. 1GB RAM oughta be standard, especially with Leopard being on the horizon.
Agreed. I can make an argument for the consumer machines, where perhaps 512 MB is sufficient for basic users. Specifically, why force them to pay more for 1 GB if they don't need it. But when it comes to the Pro machines, as if anyone buying one of these beasts is not going to require at least 2 GB of RAM, let alone 1 GB. No one buys a quad Xeon Powermac to just surf the Internet and check their e-mail. :cool:
Agreed. I can make an argument for the consumer machines, where perhaps 512 MB is sufficient for basic users. Specifically, why force them to pay more for 1 GB if they don't need it. But when it comes to the Pro machines, as if anyone buying one of these beasts is not going to require at least 2 GB of RAM, let alone 1 GB. No one buys a quad Xeon Powermac to just surf the Internet and check their e-mail. :cool:
rezenclowd3
Sep 1, 03:42 PM
I imagine most of the standard cars will be skipped over for multiplayer. Anyone up for a Volvo 240DL race?? I doubt it ;)
I will reserve judgment for the reviews and when I put my dirty paws on it.
I will reserve judgment for the reviews and when I put my dirty paws on it.
princealfie
Nov 29, 09:13 AM
No actually, I represent recording artists, songwriters and producers. I am on the other side usually trying to fight the labels for every nickle an artist can try to get.
Really? Or the music execs. People often think that they are supporting the artists when they are basically shafting them instead.
In fact, the same way like art dealers too. I have seen the best galleries ream their clients like there is no tomorrow.
We have good reason to be suspect indeed. The mediator often is the kingpin for the troubles to begin with.
Really? Or the music execs. People often think that they are supporting the artists when they are basically shafting them instead.
In fact, the same way like art dealers too. I have seen the best galleries ream their clients like there is no tomorrow.
We have good reason to be suspect indeed. The mediator often is the kingpin for the troubles to begin with.
mkjellman
Sep 18, 11:06 PM
APPLE I NEED A NEW MACBOOK PRO. I NEED FIREWIRE 800, I NEED A DL SuperDrive, i'd like MEMROM. If you had to release a half-assed Prosumer laptop in the first place to start your transition for the love of god PLEASE update it now. Its been a LONG time since we've seen any updates. Apple is now competing in INTEL land, were they need to keep their laptops current. Release the laptops (notebooks in your case as you like to call them) i'll place the order and wait for them to ship. PLEASE.!
mike
mike
pkson
Apr 5, 11:43 PM
I wonder if they're gonna add (slightly useless) stuff from iMovie like face recognition (It's a great idea, but it takes too long to go through all the clips..)
I hope FCP is just awesome beyond comprehension.
I hope FCP is just awesome beyond comprehension.
daneoni
Aug 27, 05:32 PM
Hey for what its worth, i understand where you're coming from Zadillo BUT some people still find the joke funny and therefore it deserves to be told.
